NEWARK — In early October, I sat down with artist Ron Norsworthy at Challenge for Empty Area, the place we each have studios, to debate our practices and discover shared themes. Our dialog touched on id, magnificence, and the complexities of navigating the artwork world as Black males. Norsworthy’s latest work attracts from the parable of Narcissus to look at Black male magnificence and queerness, on view by way of December 21 in his exhibition at Edwynn Houk Gallery in Manhattan. In the meantime, my follow engages with materiality and illustration, most not too long ago by way of my contribution to Flight into Egypt, a bunch exhibition on the Metropolitan Museum of Artwork, the place my print “Ancient Still Life” (2015) examines the interaction of id, migration, and historic narratives. Collectively, we mirrored on how our work intersects, diverges, and responds to broader cultural conversations. This interview has been flippantly edited and condensed for readability.
Damien Davis: I’ve at all times thought that on the subject of artwork, we’ve got to strategy issues with a way of playfulness first — particularly if you’re coping with heavy themes. For me, I would like that sense of flexibility within the studio. In any other case, I simply really feel trapped. Do you are feeling the identical manner if you’re beginning a brand new mission?
Ron Norsworthy: Oh, positively. I feel that playfulness permits for the proper of exploration. It offers you room to ask questions with out instantly worrying about solutions. It’s like a technique of discovery. With the present work I’m doing round Narcissus, it began off as a unfastened concept of how I might contemporize this historical delusion. I didn’t have all of the solutions immediately — I simply needed to discover what it might imply for me, as a Black queer man, to reimagine this classical story. And maybe a greater phrase than “reimagine” is “situate” myself in it. I wanted to see a Narcissus, somebody engaged in falling in love with themselves, who regarded like me. Unsurprisingly, I couldn’t discover one, so I made one. After which I made one other … Till there have been 10!
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus (Maybe It’s Time” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 24 x 36 inches (~60.1 x 91.4 cm)
DD: Proper, as a result of Narcissus, within the unique Historic Greek delusion, is that this determine of self-love, even self-obsession. It’s fascinating to convey that into the context of Black male magnificence, particularly in a world that hasn’t actually created area for that form of self-reflection. What drew you to Narcissus within the first place?
RN: I’ve been interested by this concept of magnificence for a very long time, particularly how Black males, and particularly queer Black males, have been neglected of the dialog round magnificence. Narcissus represents this classical very best of magnificence in Western mythology — White, male, unattainable. However there’s energy in that magnificence. I began to marvel: What if I might reclaim that for Black queer males? How will we take again that narrative of self-love? Narcissus stares at his reflection and is transfixed by it, and that’s one thing we’re usually discouraged from doing — loving ourselves unapologetically.
DD: It’s such a strong shift, proper? As a result of, such as you stated, Black males haven’t been given the area to be seen as stunning. If something, we’ve been hyper-commodified, both as athletes, entertainers, or robust, stoic figures — however not usually celebrated for our magnificence. And queer Black males have been even additional pushed to the margins in these conversations. How does the parable of Narcissus help you interrogate that erasure?
RN: Narcissus didn’t want anybody to validate his magnificence — he noticed it for himself. And whereas the parable presents that as a form of downfall, I’m excited by flipping that narrative. What occurs once we embrace that self-love? What if loving ourselves turns into a revolutionary act, particularly as queer Black males?
DD: It’s attention-grabbing as a result of the parable is usually framed in a adverse gentle — self-obsession resulting in downfall. However you’re utilizing it to speak about self-worth, which feels so essential in right now’s context. I can see how your work challenges the way in which we’ve been conditioned to see magnificence — significantly on the subject of queerness and Blackness.
RN: Sure, precisely. Narcissus offers me a framework to discover magnificence, nevertheless it’s additionally a method to ask broader questions on visibility. Who will get to be seen as stunning? And extra importantly, who will get to outline magnificence? As a result of my work is constructed of plywood layers, on some degree it may be seen as an analog to social constructions similar to magnificence, gender, race, and sophistication. We use these to form our identities. The work is actually saying itself as a development and prompting the viewer to ask what else could be.
DD: It’s actually about taking again that company, proper? In my work, I’m at all times interested by the way in which Black our bodies are represented in conventional areas and the way I can problem that, particularly by way of the supplies I exploit. You’re working with these classical concepts, however reinterpreting them by way of a really modern lens. And I feel that’s the place our practices overlap in attention-grabbing methods. You’re questioning the identical hierarchies, however by way of the mythological lens, whereas I’m doing it by way of supplies and summary varieties.
RN: Yeah, there’s positively a convergence in how we strategy the idea of visibility. I’m additionally pondering, on this physique of labor, about how magnificence has traditionally been wielded as a type of energy, particularly for queer Black males. If you’re exterior of the dominant concept of what’s thought-about stunning, there’s this fixed have to redefine it for your self. That’s why I’m drawn to this concept of Narcissus. He turns into a method to interrogate magnificence’s energy — each by way of the way it’s perceived and the way it may be reclaimed.
DD: And that’s one thing I’m continuously grappling with too — the concept of reclaiming narratives. For you, Narcissus is a metaphor for Black queer magnificence and self-worth. I’m working in a extra summary area, however the aim is comparable. I would like my work to be a spot the place Black folks, particularly those that don’t really feel seen in conventional gallery areas, can see themselves mirrored. There’s a pressure there between visibility and invisibility.
RN: Completely. And I feel there’s one thing attention-grabbing about how each of us are utilizing our work to problem these areas. Narcissus is trapped by his personal reflection, however that’s the place I see a possibility for liberation. What if we might love ourselves in the way in which that he does, however with out the tragedy? What if queer Black males might see themselves as stunning and worthy of admiration, while not having exterior validation? If this new physique of labor had a coronary heart, a middle, that will be it!
DD: It’s so essential to have that dialog about who will get to outline magnificence. Once I have a look at this sequence, I see that investigation taking part in out in real-time. You’re complicating the concept that magnificence is one thing fastened or predetermined. As an alternative, you’re providing up a story the place magnificence is expansive, the place it belongs to everybody — significantly those that’ve traditionally been neglected.
RN: That’s precisely it. And that’s why I’ve depicted Narcissus as 10 totally different people in these works. So, for me, it’s about increasing the dialog, not only for queer Black males, however for everybody. I would like folks to query why sure our bodies are seen as stunning and others aren’t. And by utilizing Narcissus as the place to begin, I’m asking viewers to rethink what magnificence means, particularly on the subject of race and queerness.
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus and Echo” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 33 1/8 x 43 5/8 x 3 3/4 inches (~84.1 x 110.8 x 9.5 cm)
DD: There’s a pressure between the concept of magnificence as energy and sweetness as a commodity. We all know that the artwork world is constructed round commodification, particularly on the subject of galleries and collectors. How do you navigate that pressure in your work?
RN: That’s a great query. I’m absolutely conscious that the work I’m making now, significantly round Narcissus, operates inside a sure form of market. The people who find themselves going to purchase my work are those who can afford it, and that’s a actuality I don’t shrink back from. However on the identical time, the work capabilities as greater than only a commodity — it’s a cultural artifact. It’s going to reside past me, whether or not in a museum, a non-public assortment, or elsewhere. It’s about understanding the programs we function inside, but in addition pushing towards these boundaries the place we will.
DD: I feel that’s what’s fascinating about your strategy. You’re acknowledging the commodification of artwork, however you’re additionally difficult it by creating work that speaks to a lot broader cultural and social points. It’s not nearly promoting a chunk — it’s about what the piece represents and the way it can have interaction with these bigger conversations round id, magnificence, and energy.
RN: That’s when the idea of entry turns into so necessary. My work is encoded with signifiers legible throughout numerous communities. I additionally need the work to be accessible within the sense that it challenges perceptions of individuals in sure privileged areas. Which individuals and which demographics are key right here? Whether or not it’s hanging in a gallery, being mentioned in a classroom, or being seen in a social media feed, the aim is to spark conversations.
DD: It’s about creating area for these conversations to occur, whether or not they’re going down in conventional artwork areas or past. And I feel each of our practices are about discovering methods to interrupt down these limitations — whether or not by way of the supplies we use, the themes we discover, or the folks we hope to succeed in.
RN: Proper, and it’s that disruption that I’m at all times searching for in my work. Narcissus turns into a method to discover these themes in a really direct manner, nevertheless it’s additionally about opening up area for others to see themselves mirrored within the work.
DD: It’s so necessary, particularly once we’re interested by how Black queer males have been marginalized in conversations round magnificence.
RN: I feel there’s one thing concerning the Narcissus delusion that feels actually related proper now, particularly when you think about how Black queer males are navigating their representations in tradition. The character of Narcissus, in his personal manner, represents this inconceivable customary of idealized male magnificence and the weaponization of self-love and of being so impossibly stunning that you simply fall in love along with your reflection and starve to loss of life. However what occurs when the inverse occurs? When that reflection is one which society has traditionally refused to validate or see as stunning? When you find yourself nearly rendered unseen? You don’t should be Black and queer to get the painful memo.
Ron Norsworthy, “Regarding Narcissus” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 36 x 48 inches (~91.4 x 121.9 cm)
DD: Proper, particularly when the sweetness requirements we’re handed down will not be made for us. I feel that’s a part of why this dialog is so necessary. If you discuss energy and sweetness, it’s not nearly self-love in a superficial manner. It’s concerning the energy constructions that undergird who will get to be seen as stunning and who doesn’t.
RN: In a manner, Narcissus turns into a metaphor for queer Black males as a result of it’s not about rejection or defiance — it’s extra about merely not being seen or acknowledged in these conventional constructions. It’s not a rejection of the heteronormative world — it’s extra, like, I simply don’t see myself in that framework. It’s nearly like an inversion: The remainder of the world is unfamiliar to me, not the opposite manner round.
DD: I like how that performs into queerness, too, as a result of queerness at its core is about least refusing to evolve to these norms. And it’s attention-grabbing, too, how these myths are centered round magnificence — particularly male magnificence — and the way that will get much more advanced if you’re Black and queer. Society isn’t used to viewing Black males, particularly queer Black males, by way of that lens of magnificence.
RN: And that’s the place the facility of it is available in. Magnificence is energy, and that’s true in so some ways. When queer Black males assert their magnificence, they’re asserting their energy, too, nevertheless it’s difficult as a result of there’s such a slender customary that’s traditionally been accepted. The Narcissus delusion, for me, turns into a software to discover that — to query why sure our bodies, sure faces, and sure pores and skin tones, have been excluded from that narrative of magnificence. It offers me an entrypoint into a wider dialog about who will get to occupy that area of desirability and the way we, as Black queer males, navigate it.
DD: And I feel that’s the place queerness and gender nonconformity tie in. In some methods, we’re not simply difficult the present magnificence requirements — we’re redefining them. It’s not about becoming into that mildew and even rejecting it, such as you stated. It’s about creating a complete new area the place we set the phrases for what magnificence and energy appear like. The truth that we’re in a position to have this dialog by way of artwork is highly effective in itself as a result of artwork offers us the instruments to problem these norms in ways in which transcend phrases.
RN: Undoubtedly. It’s in the end about creating our personal reflections. If society isn’t going to provide us a mirrored image that we will see ourselves in, then we create it ourselves. The concept of self-love and reflection is a lot extra layered if you’re a Black queer man. And this work I’m doing round Narcissus permits me to get into that. It’s not a few easy narrative of vainness. It’s extra about what occurs if you lastly see your self; if you cease ready for another person at hand you a mirror that reveals you what you wish to see.
Damien Davis, “Ancient Still Life” (2015), digital print on chilly press paper, 20 x 30 inches (50.8 x 76.2 cm) (picture by Damien Davis, courtesy the artist)
DD: I feel we’re each utilizing our work to carve out these areas for ourselves and for folks like us. It’s a manner of claiming, “We are here.” However we’re not simply right here in the way in which folks anticipate us to be — we’re bringing our definitions of magnificence and energy into the dialog. And in that sense, we’re doing extra than simply rejecting or resisting — we’re rewriting the entire thing. And talking of that, with The Met’s upcoming Superfine: Tailoring Black Type exhibition, it looks like they’re attempting to faucet into that dialog round magnificence and Black males, significantly by way of style. How do you are feeling about that?
RN: You realize, I’m intrigued. I see nice potential, however I even have my reservations. The Met is a culturally big establishment with a really difficult historical past of appropriation and theft. Whereas I actually suppose they’re attempting to interact with these necessary themes, I’m not solely certain they’ll have the ability to absolutely seize the nuances of Black male magnificence by way of the lens of style — and particularly emphasize its elementary intersection with Black queerness, which is one thing altogether totally different from White gayness. Who’s there to information the dialog? Who’s invested in controlling the narrative? Will they dig into the complexities and dynamics of the facility of id expression? The intersectionalities of these expressions? Or the nuanced language of the signifiers?
DD: It’s difficult as a result of, on the one hand, it’s nice that these establishments are acknowledging the dialog, however alternatively, it looks like they’re usually simply scratching the floor.
RN: And never understanding or valuing what they’re scratching at! It may well all be a bit performative and patronizing.
DD: I see what you’re saying. It’s the identical pressure that comes up within the artwork world typically — this concept of commodification versus cultural critique. I feel what you’re doing with Narcissus will get on the coronary heart of that pressure. It’s not nearly placing queer Black males within the body of magnificence, but in addition about questioning who will get to determine what magnificence seems like.
RN: Sure, and that’s why I reserve the appropriate to be essential of a PWI (predominantly White establishment) doing this present. There’s, after all, the chance to platform a group, however there are the opposing and sure alternatives, if historical past is prologue, to commodify, objectify, exploit, and flatten. I’m pondering of how Madonna’s “Vogue” shined a light-weight whereas additionally exploiting the ballroom group. So the query is that this: Is that group higher or worse? Colonizers colonize. So what function does company play? I’d argue company is the important thing to there being a distinct and higher end result from subsequent yr’s Met Gala theme. If Black dandies, of which I’m one, can form and contextualize the narrative, I’ve hope.
DD: That’s such a essential level. And it ties again to your work with Narcissus — since you’re not simply speaking about magnificence, you’re speaking about energy: who will get to carry it, who’s excluded from it, and the way magnificence operates as each a forex and a weapon inside that dynamic.
RN: This work turns into a manner for me to discover these concepts in a extremely direct manner. It’s not nearly how we outline magnificence — it’s about reclaiming our company to like ourselves freed from gendered requirements of magnificence, or heterosexual norms of working. In order that’s what I hope my work brings to the dialog, particularly as we see extra establishments like The Met striving to be extra inclusive. The query will at all times be, how will we heart ourselves in our personal narratives? It’s inconceivable with out realizing and loving ourselves utterly and unapologetically.
Ron Norsworthy, “Narcissus in Rollers” (2024), mixed-media collage in reduction on wooden panel, 30 x 38 inches (~76.2 x 96.5 cm)
